Nissan Seeking Customer Input on Leaf Battery Warranty: Is 60,000 Miles Enough?
By John O'Dell July 22, 2010
We're not sure if it is nervousness about the competition or a refreshingly real interest in what customers want, but Nissan is surveying more than 10,000 people who've signed up to get info about the Leaf EV to find out what kind of battery warranty would satisfy them.
The survey was e-mailed just after General Motors announced that its extended-range electric-drive Volt would carry an 8-year, 100,000-mile warranty on its lithium-ion battery pack.
From the wording of the Nissan battery survey - and from comments some executives have made about the pace of battery development - it appears the company initially was thinking of 5-year, 60,000 warranty on the Leaf battery pack.
The survey - actually a batch of battery warranty questions embedded in a longer survey that includes questions about potential buyers' vehicle use patterns and seriousness of intent to acquire a Leaf - seems aimed at finding out the minimum warranty that would satisfy people and how much folks would be willing to pay for an optional extension to go beyond that.
Questions weren't couched in terms of what kind of warranty would make people happy. Rather, Nissan asked before listing a bunch of warranty choices, "at what point will you not consider the Nissan Leaf as your next vehicle?"
The choices ran from 3 years or 36,000 miles all the way to 10 years or 200,000 miles.
Subsequent questions honed in on the 5-year, 100,000 mile option and asked people for input on whether that would switch off their interest in the Leaf and what they'd be willing to pay for an optional extension.
In the past, several Nissan execs have said that they company figures to have a new and improved battery, with increased range, ready for the Leaf and other Nissan EVs, in about five years and expected that many early Leaf buyers who still had the cars and wanted to keep them would want to buy the new batteries to improve their single-charge driving range.
Katheryn Zachary, a spokeswoman for Nissan North America, told us that the automaker sent the survey to the more than 9,500 people in the U.S. who've plunked down a $99 deposit on a Leaf (we're among that number) as well as to a "sampling' of some of the more than 50,000 who've asked to be kept informed of Leaf developments.
"We have been analyzing warranty options and before finalizing our policy we wanted to hear from future Nissan LEAF drivers," Zachary said in an e-mail (Nissan capitalizes the car's name, we don't, but it's a direct quote, so...).
She said early feedback "is proving to be valuable as we finalize the warranty and will help ensure we are meeting expectations of the marketplace."
PS - We told 'em in our survey responses that we'd expect at minimum an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty because we want to know that Nissan is standing behind the initial battery even if it does expect to have a better one available at some point.
John O'Dell, Senior Editor
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A battery warranty under 10yr/150k miles becomes a cost issue, as you have to price battery replacement into your cost of ownership. At current estimates of $750/kW for traction batteries, the $18,000 price of a replacement cannot be ignored. A low ball warranty erodes the LEAF?s price point when you have to buy a service contract to insure reasonable use. Nissan would do well to show faith in their product and remove battery warranty as an issue.
I think Nissan have a problem. Their AESC chemistry is good for around 1,000 cycles to 80% without fast charging, 70% if fast charging is used, so you get around 7-8 years and Nissan will obviously want to guarantee it for considerably less.
The lifetime and cycle life has been decisively surpassed by the LG Chem batteries most EV and hybrid makers are going to use:
Here is the Hyundai Sonata hybrid using LG Chem batteries:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/reviews/hybrid-electric/2011-hyundai-sonata-hybrid-test-drive?click=pm_latest
'Hyundai engineers say that the lithium-polymer batteries can tolerate tens of thousands of charge cycles, without having to use a liquid-cooling system. According to W. C Yang, president of the Hyundai R&D Center, the Sonata Hybrid batteries should supply "300,000 miles with less than 10 percent reduction in performance ? that's purely from an engineering point of view, not a warranty point of view." Hyundai currently offers a 100,000 mile/10 year powertrain warranty in the U.S. market. '
The batteries in a hybrid have a much harder life than in an EV, so this effectively means that they last as long as the vehicle - as long as their shelf life allows it.
However, LG claim:
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Electric_vehicle_battery
'LG Chem expecting their lithium-manganese spinel batteries to last up to 40 years. [4]'
This knocks the Nissan 1,000 cycles and around 8 years out of the ring.
It is also interesting that the GM Volt, also using LG Chem batteries, uses a liquid cooling system, whereas at least on the Hyundai hybrid air does the job.
I suspect that GM had already gone firm on the design, and were not able to take full advantage of the latest LG batteries, or they haven't got access to their best technology.
@keijidosha The battery ISN'T $18,000 now, let alone in 6 - 10 yrs, it's about 1/2 that!
60,000 miles = 96,000 km. That as much warranty as you'll get on a regular ICE car. The warranty running out LOGICALLY doesn't mean the battery is a throw away....
There is simply NO WAY for anyone to estimate the actual cost of a replacement battery in 6 - 10 years, but you can GUARANTEE it will be significantly cheaper than today AND it's significantly cheaper than replacing the entire car as you do with an ICE car every decade.
Only last week the President of the US, no less, said publicly he expects battery prices to drop 70% over the next 5 years.
If you're too stupid to be positive about owning an EV, the answer is simple.... don't buy one.
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